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Elliptical phrase/help
Message from a_limon posted on 11-06-2012 at 00:21:51 (D | E | F)
Hello!
I saw the term here,in one topic,"an elliptical phrase".
Could you tell me please whether it is used in the sentences with the compound direct object expressed by the accusative case with infinitive construction (1) or(2)participle. I mean the sentences like these.
1)I saw my friend come into the cabin. I heard him sing. I want him to come.
2)I saw him mounting the ladder. We want the loading completed today. Have the hold closed.
Thank you in advance.
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Edited by lucile83 on 11-06-2012 07:44
Message from a_limon posted on 11-06-2012 at 00:21:51 (D | E | F)
Hello!
I saw the term here,in one topic,"an elliptical phrase".
Could you tell me please whether it is used in the sentences with the compound direct object expressed by the accusative case with infinitive construction (1) or(2)participle. I mean the sentences like these.
1)I saw my friend come into the cabin. I heard him sing. I want him to come.
2)I saw him mounting the ladder. We want the loading completed today. Have the hold closed.
Thank you in advance.
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Edited by lucile83 on 11-06-2012 07:44
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from notrepere, posted on 11-06-2012 at 04:31:57 (D | E)
HelloNone of these are elliptical phrases. You should study what an elliptical phrase is before asking questions.
Happy studying
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from irish21, posted on 11-06-2012 at 04:54:25 (D | E)
Hello,
here's a link that you might find useful:
Link
Regards.
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 16:00:56 (D | E)
Hello!
Thank you irish21 for the link. But could you tell me how these sentences arose? I know this type of sentences, but it seems to me, that something is omitted in them too.
1)I saw my friend come into the cabin. I heard him sing. I want him to come.
2)I saw him mounting the ladder. We want the loading completed today. Have the hold closed.
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Edited by a_limon on 11-06-2012 16:14
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from gerondif, posted on 11-06-2012 at 17:32:53 (D | E)
hello,
an elliptical sentence is one where you leave part of it out on purpose
Do you want to come ? No, I don't want to *****.
Do you think he will come ? Yes, I think so
1) Your problem seems to be more the verb pattern following see or hear.
a) If you have not seen the beginning of the action: see/hear + ing
He was working when I arrived: I saw him working, I heard him working (you were not there when he began to work)
b) If you have seen the whole action from begining to end: see/hear + verb base
He tried to climb up the ladder but he fell: I saw him fall / I heard him shout as he fell.
This explanation would take care of:
I saw my friend come into the cabin. I heard him sing.
I saw him mounting the ladder.
"I want him to come." I order him to come, I expect him to come, I ask him to come: it is the infinitive clause.
"We want the loading (to be )completed today". I want that door painted today: the past participle (painted, completed) indicates the result of the action you want somebody to do:
I want you to paint that door: "you" will "paint", it is an active voice.
I want that house painted: the house paints nothing, it is painted, it will be painted, it is a passive voice:
I want that house to be painted.
Have the hold closed. means: make sure that somebody closes the hold (the cellar of a boat or plane).
I will have the house painted!
I will have him arrested.
I had him followed.
The mafia had President Kennedy shot:
In all these sentences, the past participle means that something is done to the house, to him, to President Kennedy
he use of "have" means that you don't do the action yourself, you have it done by somebody else.
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 18:33:49 (D | E)
I have a problem with understanding the construction, (not the meaning) "I saw my friend come into the cabin. I heard him sing. I want him to come. "
#I saw how my fiend came into the cabin. I heard how he sang. I want (wish) that he came.#
The construction of these sentences that mean the same is clear to me. (in contrast of those ones)
I heard him sing I have a feeling that some word ( maybe,the conjunction) is absent here. That is why this construction is not clear to me.
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from gerondif, posted on 11-06-2012 at 18:46:49 (D | E)
Hello,
there is nothing to "understand", it is just the way it works:
"I saw my friend come into the cabin. I saw him when he came into the cabin.
I heard him sing. I heard him when he sang.
"I want him to come": him, direct objet of want , is the subject of to come
I want him to come: is different from:
I wish he would come (it is still possible in the near future)
I wish he came (you regret his absence NOW)
I wish he had come (you regret his absence earlier on, yesterday...)
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from a_limon, posted on 12-06-2012 at 00:03:04 (D | E)
Hello!
Gerondif, "I want him to come": him, direct objet of want , is the subject of to come. ("him" is the subject of "to come") is the point that seems strange to me. :-( I want him who is to come. Maybe "who is" is omitted in this kind of sentence?
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from gerondif, posted on 12-06-2012 at 00:24:48 (D | E)
Hello,
"I want" can be followed:
1) by an object:
I want a cake.
I want my friend.
I want you.
2) by an infinitive:
I want to eat this cake.
3) If you use both, then , the object 1) will become the subject of the infinitve 2)
I want you to eat this cake.
There is NO WAY you can put 'who is" into this pattern.
Or if you do, the meaning is quite different:
"I want you who are to eat this cake" means:
I want you (you express your desire, emotionally, maybe even sexually) who are going to //about to/ eat this cake
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from traviskidd, posted on 12-06-2012 at 04:46:38 (D | E)
Hello.
Normally, a subject can be added to an infinitive as "for" + objective case. (There are only two cases of nouns in English: subjective and objective (I exclude here the possessive case which is really an adjective), and they differ only with pronouns.)
for me to go
for you to do
for John to climb
for there to be
After certain verbs (such as "want", "need", and "expect"), the word "for" may be (and usually is) omitted.
I want (for) you to come.
I expect (for) him to do his homework.
I need (for myself) to go to the supermarket.
I suppose it is the omission of "for" that makes you consider these phrases elliptical.
However, "I saw him come" is an observative construction similar to a causative ("I made him come") or a permissive ("I let him come"). It is not elliptical, as there are no omitted words.
You could say "I saw how he came" (a construction similar to Russian), but in this case "how" would more likely be taken to refer to the manner in which he came, rather than the simple fact that he came. (However, sometimes "how" does indeed refer to a fact: I like how my dog jumps every time he barks!)
See you.
Re: Elliptical phrase/help from a_limon, posted on 25-06-2012 at 16:07:50 (D | E)
Hello,
However, "I saw him come" is an observative construction similar to a causative ("I made him come") or a permissive ("I let him come"). It is not elliptical, as there are no omitted words.
"I let him come",without any omitted words,sounds clear and ok to me,but I can't get "I saw (""'as'"")him come" and "I made him come".
(the sense I know)(I saw that he came. I made such conditions for him that he had to come.)
I saw (what?)-->"a simple answer":as him come.
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Edited by a_limon on 25-06-2012 18:35
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Edited by a_limon on 25-06-2012 18:38
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