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Message de serena posté le 2004-08-24 14:01:46 (S | E | F | I)
Bonjour

L’emploi de « chez » en anglais me pose quelques problèmes parfois.
Si je veux dire :
- tu peux rester chez moi : you can stay at my place ?
- je suis chez David : I’m at David’s ?
- viens me chercher chez ma sœur : ?
- je suis chez le dentiste : I’m at the dentist’s ? ou I'm at the dentist's place ?
Peut-on ne pas mettre le "place" ?

J’aimerais que vous me donniez d’autres traductions de ces phrases, et si c’est possible, quelques phrases courantes avec « chez ».

Merci

-------------------
Edité par bridg le 19-11-2004 10:08


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de yannloic, postée le 2004-08-24 14:32:36 (S | E)
Je pense pas que le place soit obligatoire.

Il y a le cas les problèmes de lieu:

Le classique I'm going home. (je vais chez moi).

le "Faites comme chez vous" : make yourself at home.
derrière chez moi : behind my house
Il vit chez moi : He lives with me.

Il y a le "chez" qui désigne quelqu'un et c'est un peu le fouilli, parce que ce n'est pas l'appartenance qui compte:

chez Shakespeare : in the work of Shakespeare
chez les animaux : in the animal kingdom (merci Kippling)
chez les jeunes : among young people
chez moi : with me (exemple: It is a bad habit with me)

Bref, la traduction directe, il vaut mieux oublier. C'est du genre boire un verre. Il vaut mieux essayer de penser comme les anglo-saxons.

Are you coming for a drink ?
He drinks out of a glass.
He drains a glass.(Il a tout descendu)


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-24 14:43:26 (S | E)
Hi serena. Your understanding is fine!

But just for préciser*:

You should say "I'm at the dentist's." If you put in the word "place" it means that you are at his home, not his office!

The only other sense (than those you've mentioned) of the word "chez" that I know of is in the expression "Ce que j'aime chez toi" which is translated "What I like about you."

-----------------
*Préciser is a very useful verb, but unfortunately I can't think of a precise English equivalent! (Yes, I've just used the word precise, but that's an adjective!)


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de rosminet, postée le 2004-08-24 15:02:00 (S | E)
chez ma sœur : at my sister's


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de pj, postée le 2004-08-24 15:04:50 (S | E)
Source: The Collins French Dictionary Plus © 2002 HarperCollins Publishers:

chez préposition
1 (= à la demeure de) at (direction) to
chez quelqu'un at/to somebody's house ou place
chez moi at home
(direction) home
2 (= à l'entreprise de) il travaille chez Renault he works for Renault; he works at Renault('s)
3 (+profession) at (direction) to
chez le boulanger/dentiste at ou to the baker's/dentist's
4 (= dans le caractère, l'œuvre de) in
chez les renards/Racine in foxes/Racine
chez les Français among the French
chez lui, c'est un devoir for him, it's a duty

nom m inv
mon chez moi/ton chez toi etc my/your etc home ou place


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de serena, postée le 2004-08-24 15:45:42 (S | E)
thank you all ! many thanks!

so, to use "chez", we must take notice to the context and who or what we're talking about.
so I will be careful while saying "I'm going to the dentist's", adding "place" would change the true intention !

rominet : at my sister's. c'est noté, merci.
travis : for "préciser", I think you can say " specify" or "clear".

thanks once more!

see you !


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de werriy58, postée le 2004-08-24 16:31:26 (S | E)
Hi serena and every members !
D'emblée appuie yannloic. L'emploi de place n'a pas sa place tout comme la traduction directe. J'étais très familiarisé avec la machine à écrire alors quand nous sommes passés aux ordinateurs, je voulais toujours faire un parallélisme entre le dactylo et le PC. Mon Boss a vendu la machine à écrire. C'est intéressant serena. Je trouve que pour chez nous pouvons utiliser at, to, with, one's voire exclure le chez.
exemples avec at : he is not at home, at somebody's house, it is better at home (chez nous c'est mieux), I don't feel at home here; she went to a convent school, I'm going to my sister's house, come to our house, he is gone to the dentist's; do you live with your parents ? it's become a habit with me; one's home, one' (son chez-soi); autres cas : one of our good local wines, he lives near is friend, it is strange, for a man of his age (c'est quand même curieux chez l'homme de son âge), in Molière (chez Molière), this expression is common among young people, among the Americans, in the animal kingdom, among animals, exlusion de chez : I took him home (je l'ai reconduit chez lui), I'm going home etc
Thank you to everybody for our common help.
werriy58


Réponse: re à traviskidd de mariet, postée le 2004-08-24 17:30:48 (S | E)
"Préciser is a very useful verb, but unfortunately I can't think of a precise English equivalent! (Yes, I've just used the word precise, but that's an adjective!)"
Couldn't we just say 'to be more precise', or would it make much of a difference ?


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-24 22:13:39 (S | E)
Hi Mariet. I thought of "to clarify" and "to specify" and even "to be more precise", but none of them seemed as precise as préciser in expressing what I wanted to say.

What I meant was that serena was essentially correct in her understanding regarding the translation of chez, and that I was only wanting to fill in small gaps in her understanding of the details (such as whether or not to use "place").

Going on serena's own suggestion, perhaps "to clear things up" would be the closest English expression of what I meant. Or maybe "to shore things up".

Anyway, this is interesting, because it seems that préciser is an example of the idea that a different language can sometimes teach someone how to express a notion that does not exist (at least not quite so precisely) in his own language.

-------------------
Edité par traviskidd le 2004-08-24 22:25:39


Réponse: re à traviskidd de mariet, postée le 2004-08-24 22:54:26 (S | E)
Quite so! There are words which do not exist in English (agrumes, fauves...) and others which do not exist in French (hot-dog, western... among so many English words). It goes for other languages too. That's why they have to be imported... or we have to find an approximate way, as close as possible but never quite exact, to express the same meaning. And it often makes translating a very difficult job!

By the way, you wouldn't, by any chance, know the origin of 'hot-dog' ? My pupils ask me the question every year and I'd be so glad if I could answer at last...


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de serena, postée le 2004-08-25 01:15:38 (S | E)
hello mariet
I'm going to tell you what I know about the origin of "hot dog".

In 1500 before Jesus Christ, the Babylonian made a special cook by filling up animals intestine with mince meat.
In the 1850’s, the German added spices and other ingredients to give it a better taste. They also fried it. There was a butcher who had a dog: a dachshund. And they noticed that their new cook seemed like the tail of this dachshund.
Two German men introduced it in the new world, America, by selling it on the streets as hot sandwiches. They talked about its likeness with the dog they saw in Germany. Then, the American have called it “hot dog” since.

That's what I was told by my american teacher when I was a student.
I don't know if there's another story, but this one seems to be convincing.

to werriy: thank you too for your contribution.

-------------------
Edité par serena le 2004-08-25 01:19:34


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-25 04:36:11 (S | E)
I don't really know where the term "hot-dog" comes from. Maybe Serena is right. I can tell you that we often call a dachshund a "Hot-dog dog", not because of its tail but because of its body!

I'm sure you can find the answer (if it is known, or many theories if the true answer isn't known) on the Internet.

Maybe give your pupils an assignment to try to look for the origin of this term!

Another question is why do we call it a HAMburger when it is made out of BEEF (not HAM)? Of course the answer there lies with the German city of Hamburg. (Interesting, then, that the short word for it is "burger"!)

Finally, for Serena, years before Jesus Christ are denoted B.C. (Before Christ). Years after Christ (was born) are denoted A.D. (anno domini).

There is a comic strip here called B.C. whose* characters are prehistoric people.

*recall our discussion on "whose"!!


Réponse: re:CHEZ ? de serena, postée le 2004-08-25 14:06:27 (S | E)
hi !

travis, if the word "ham" comes from germany, "hot dog" surely does too. it's a good idea for mariet to ask her pupils to do an "exposé" about hot dog.
but tell me, it means that the american took their famous food from the german ?

well, thank you for BC and AD. sometimes, I ask myself if my knowledge in english aren't from 500 BC.

can you tell us a bit about the BC comic strip?

-------------------
Edité par serena le 2004-08-25 14:14:47




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