Pronounce 'T' a 'D'

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Pronounce 'T' a 'D'
Message from lamar posted on 14-10-2010 at 00:24:00 (D | E | F)
Hello ,
Most Americans ( I think that ) pronounce "T" a "D" ? (water= wader, waiting = waiding, getting = gedding...etc)

What are the reasons which make most people pronounce "t" a "d"??
Is it related to specific region ?? what are they ??
If you have any links that can help me in this subject,, please ~~write it~~ tell me.

Thanks in advance

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Edited by lucile83 on 14-10-2010 08:13

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Edited by lucile83 on 14-10-2010 22:16

English Only Forum here...please...

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from notrepere, posted on 14-10-2010 at 00:42:22 (D | E)
Hello!

Here are some links:

" * Flapping of /t/ and /d/. Another feature distinguishing North American English dialects in general from British Received Pronunciation is the voicing or flapping of /t/ before an unstressed vowel, causing the word better to sound like "bedder" [bɛdɚ] or [bɛɾɚ].

The United States does not have a concrete 'standard' accent in the same way that Britain has Received Pronunciation. Nonetheless, a form of speech known to linguists as General American is perceived by most Americans to be "accent-less", meaning a person who speaks in such a manner does not appear to be from anywhere. The region of the United States that most resembles this is the central Midwest, specifically eastern Nebraska (including Omaha and Lincoln), southern and central Iowa (including Des Moines), and western Illinois (including Peoria and the Quad Cities, but not the Chicago area)."

Lien Internet

Lien Internet

Lien Internet

Good luck!

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Edited by notrepere on 14-10-2010 00:43

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Edited by lucile83 on 14-10-2010 22:14
This is the English only forum np! ...

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Edited by notrepere on 15-10-2010 04:15
I forgot to look, Pink!

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from benboom, posted on 14-10-2010 at 14:24:53 (D | E)

Most Americans ( I think that ) pronounce "T" a "D" ? (water= wader, waiting = waiding, getting = gedding...etc)

Ah, non, nous ne disons pas "d". MAIS...nous disons souvent quelque chose entre "d" et "t". Mais personne ne dit "wader" au lieu de "water". On le traiterait d'enfant!

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Edited by lucile83 on 14-10-2010 22:12
This is the English only forum benboom! ...

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from violet91, posted on 14-10-2010 at 19:43:14 (D | E)

Hello, lamar,

If various accents in a language are charming and differences as necessary as precious for identities , it is also true there is a real problem when teaching or learning English pronunciation. As a matter of fact, standard English (vocabulary,grammar and recorded pronunciation) almost makes American a "foreign" language.
As you say , you have got to have a very sharp ear to get the difference between "letter "and "ladder"(if no context ,it is worse!)..there isn't any in many American states.( I should say they are more or less pronounced the same way with a "t" turned into a "light" "d", I admit, benboom). I have also noticed the higher the education and social class are, the more English American sounds. I am just giving my opinion , not criticizing , mind you.
It also appears to me many Americans tend to simplify the language being more "flexible",maybe.
In GB, pronunciation tells which place you come from and also which social class you belong to. The differences do not occur with alveolar plosive consonants (t,d)(except with words like "often" when Scottish people do pronounce "t".., but more on short/long vowels (a pub [p b](common) or [pb]in Yorkshire /diphtongs (a day [d]common)or[d](Cockney)..
Other consonants like "r"(very strong in Wales and parts of Scotland), "ch" (Scottish, loch= German, Bach)..sometimes, unfortunately "h" dropped when it should sound clear ( glottal fricative consonant).(Cockney or familiar English, sometimes).New York [nj..:UK]#[n:US]...

Very little is said about American pronunciation until your final year at grammar school (high school)in France(and most European countries ,I expect).
I am afraid the tool used for teaching and studying English pronunciation remains "The English pronouncing dictionary " by Daniel Jones (R.P).It has been so, for decennies. Students come across American texts, authors, History for some exams. Most studies are focused on English,though. Yet, students are used to hearing and discriminating different accents in some courses and tests. They are supposed to recognize English, Scottish,Irish , Canadian, American , Australian...
Still, when you leave as a graduate and want to teach...you are still expected to use standard English and received English pronunciation (I mean "pure "English).

If you work as a trader or an engineer..or if you travel round the world, it does not matter which accent you prefer to use..as long as your English is correct and you make yourself understood.

I never meant to offend anyone speaking English-American ; I was clear about that , last night. Yet, I can't help precising there would be many extraterrestrials in GB ,according to you, notrepere...everywhere you go , you can still hear and enjoy "good" English.

I hope I have been helpful . Good night.

Thank you Lucile for telling...

Thank you benboom for understanding exactly what I meant .

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from lamar, posted on 14-10-2010 at 22:42:26 (D | E)
Dear notrepere,
Thanks so much for giving me a lot of informations.
But you mentioned that "a person who speaks in such a manner does not appear to be from anywhere." Did you mean pronouncing "T" a "D" does not relate to any specific region ?

benboom,

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from lamar, posted on 14-10-2010 at 22:47:17 (D | E)
Dear violet91,
Thanks a million , and I translate your post to be more clear for ESL
"The accents are charming .., the differences too. But it is true that often the "t" is "crushed" in the U.S. (more or less, you are right, benboom) .. a little carried ear can hear "letter" as "ladder" .. as an American, following the state where they speak and the cultural level ...

In the UK, how to pronounce words the region but also social class. (The differences are not present in the dentals, but some simple vowels, diphthongs, "h" or not ... aspirated The consonant "r" is rolled or not, too.

In France (and probably elsewhere in Europe), if the pronunciation is discussed in U.S. university (or end of school), the benchmark for home and phonetic dictionary "English Pronouncing Dictionary" by Daniel Jones.
But at the exit, you are supposed to differentiate English, Irish, American Australian ..."

Thanks again.

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Edited by lamar on 14-10-2010 22:49

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from violet91, posted on 14-10-2010 at 23:12:08 (D | E)

Well done,lamar..we have made each other work!..Good luck!

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from traviskidd, posted on 15-10-2010 at 01:39:39 (D | E)
Hello.

The "flapped" D/T occurs only between two vowels the second of which is unstressed (= unaccentuated).* One simply touches the tip of the tongue to the palate for an instant, without stopping the vocal cords and without making the plosive sound normally associated with T. It is in fact a "light" D, akin to an R rolled as in Spanish (but without the lips being in an R position). No distinction is made between D and T, so that, for example, the words "medal", "meddle", "metal", and "mettle" are all pronounced the same.

It should be noted that this way of pronunciation is not considered to be correct and, generally speaking, is not found in dictionaries. On the other hand, it is more or less the only way these words are actually pronounced in everyday situations. The use of the correct pronunciation will mark you as either a foreigner or a robot. (And in fact, if I remember correctly, even Kate -- Audrey's American cousin -- prefers the everyday pronunciation!)

See you.

(*And not always even in this case. For example, if the second vowel is followed by an N then D and T are pronounced as glottal stops, with T distinguishing itself from D by being a more complete stop (compare "ridden" and "written").)

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from notrepere, posted on 15-10-2010 at 04:44:42 (D | E)
Hello! I think the idea that there is a "pure English" is outdated, not to mention snobbish. As this article points out:

« Interestingly enough "RP" ("Received Pronunciation", which is also known as "Queen's English" or "Oxford English") is spoken only by about 5% of the UK population which means there are many different dialects to be found in the British Isles. If you travel the UK you will notice that the differences in pronunciation are stronger and wider than in the US although the latter clearer is the bigger country. »

Lien Internet

So I think the notion that there is a "pure English" which is widely spoken throughout the UK (or throughout the world for that matter) creates a false notion of reality.

We live in a different world than we lived in 40 years ago. One of my French friends tells me that even the French language has evolved over the years (What happened to the imperfect subjunctive?). American English has a wide-reaching affect throughout the world: on the internet, in the media, and even in the UK. It's no longer practical (or advisable in my opinion) to try to sideline American English. Most people are not the product of the hallowed halls of academia. And most of the world is not part of the aristocracy. For English learners to compete with the rest of the world, they'll need to understand all forms of English.

I have no problem understanding British English when I'm watching one of the many fine programs put out by the BBC. I can even understand cockney.

Lien Internet

Why is that? It's because I was exposed to many forms of English. The differences between American and British English are not that great. Perhaps the reason American English sounds like a foreign language is because you were only taught one form. You can see how this has become a handicap in today's world. American English is here to stay, I'm afraid and holding on to an antiquated system that is barely tolerant of American English is a notion of the past. Shift happens. Change happens. Say hello to the new "English language".

Sincerely,

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from benboom, posted on 17-10-2010 at 12:38:53 (D | E)

Sorry about the French in the post, Lucile; I get my forums mixed up.

As for the idea that there is no longer a "received English"...it is true with respect to American English, but only to a point. Most Americans are not aware that many of the people they listen to on the radio and on television (I am referring specifically to newscasters, but also to many actors and other "performing heads", too) have had elocution lessons and as a result they actually do speak in a slightly different way when compared with the majority of the population. Having spent almost 30 years in the theatre (stage, not motion picture), I am quite aware of what goes into this and the amount of work that some people have put into making their American English sound "natural".

For an example of the phenomenon, you need only listen for any word which contains a "u" such as "tune" or "duke". If the speaker pronounces it as "toon" or "dook", he is probably a native American speaker who has not worked on this. If the speaker pronounces it as "tyune" or "dyuke" (in other words, more like a French person would), he has probably either had elocution lessons (this is a frequent target of elocution teachers), has worked on it himself, or (finally) he grew up in one of those rare homes where this pronunciation is the norm.

I would say, as a result, that the American English that is spoken on major network news broadcasts by highly paid hosts is about as close to a "received pronunciation" as it gets here.

I agree with violet91 that with a higher level of education comes a stronger tendency to pronounce such words "correctly"; I don't think this is a value judgment except to the extent that we Americans have already decided that this is the case. In other words, violet is only observing what is going on in the society.

Notrepere is also correct when he states that only a small percentage of British people actually speak BBC "received" English. However, they can all understand it, just as we Americans can all understand the newscasters I referred to; these are a sort of lingua franca for our countries which everyone can understand even if they do not speak quite that way.

Re: Pronounce 'T' a 'D' from lamar, posted on 19-10-2010 at 21:34:04 (D | E)
violet91, traviskidd, notrepere, and benboom
Really I don't know how to thank you
You made me more awarness with all these information
Thank you and thank to your kindness.
Best Regards.

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