Which function/help

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Which function/help
Message from a_limon posted on 08-06-2012 at 15:54:03 (D | E | F)
Hello!

I'm interested to know for sure which function of the participles in the sentences below is.
I hope you help me again.
Deeply shocked I left him.The (an) article discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers.Studying the nature of light and color,Newton carried out many experiments with a prism.
I think all these participles(1 and 2) have attributive function. But I'm not sure about "discussing".
Could "discussing" be the noun here and the "article" play the function of the adjective?
in advance.

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Edited by lucile83 on 08-06-2012 18:20

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 17:25:52 (D | E)
Hello!
The introductory participle phrase is used as an adjective,not as an adverb, isn't it?
But why then in Russian, ALL the English participle phrases are considered adverbial?? :-(

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Edited by a_limon on 11-06-2012 17:26

Re: Which function/help from lucile83, posted on 11-06-2012 at 17:36:43 (D | E)
Hello,

Deeply shocked I left him.The (an) article discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers.Studying the nature of light and color,Newton carried out many experiments with a prism.

discussing is a present participle; it means : the article that was discussing the new system...Verb + -ing
studying is a present participle; while he was studying ...Verb + -ing

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 18:51:23 (D | E)
Hello,lucile!

The (an) article discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspaper
What article must be used for "article" in this sentence:an or the?
If one wouldn't use any article in this sentence: "Article discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspaper." then could "discussing" be gerund, and "article" be adjectival? (like in the "school education",the "school" plays the role of the adjective)

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Edited by a_limon on 11-06-2012 18:52

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Edited by lucile83 on 11-06-2012 19:33

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 11-06-2012 at 19:01:59 (D | E)
Hello,
your ability to split hairs should entitle you to an academy award !!!!!

You can use either an or the, but the meaning will be different.

An article (which was)discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers: means that you just mention AN article that you happened to read.

The article (which was)discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers.

The being a shortened form of this or that, you mention a precise article that you had already talked about before and you give a further piece of information about it.

Look at my invented story:
Lucilia Sharatova wrote an interesting article . The article appeared in all newspapers.

"could "discussing" be gerund, and "article"be adjectival?" NO!!!
"Article" is the subject of the verb is discussing, and in "the article discussing", you have:
the article: noun, subject of the verb appeared.
discussing: present participle.
If you use no article, then it could be the headline of a newspaper:
Article published without writer's consent!
Big trial ahead !

Re: Which function/help from lucile83, posted on 11-06-2012 at 19:46:32 (D | E)
a few days ago some members and I spent hours explaining the use of gerunds and participles, and I can see today you haven't understood all of it!
What a pity.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 19:50:29 (D | E)
But the gerund could be the subject of the sentence and have different modifiers too. That is why it is still not clear to me why in this sentence the using the "discussing" is only as participle. Maybe it is because of "article" is never used as the adjective like "school" in the "school education"? In all cases,"Article discussing" is the "noun+participle", not "adjective+gerund"? But "Long discussing" is possible?

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 19:54:05 (D | E)
Lucile, One can discuss during a long time, but omit the some moments,which have nothing to do with the discussed. It's a pity too.

Re: Which function/help from lucile83, posted on 11-06-2012 at 19:59:56 (D | E)
Hello,

The/An article (which was) discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers.

article = subject of the verb appeared.
They could have said:
The/An article appeared in all newspapers and it was discussing the new system of school education.
Is it clear? hope so...

And please stop splitting hairs, we have no more left on our heads!

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 11-06-2012 at 20:03:49 (D | E)
Hello!

If I go to a journalist's school, maybe I will have a course in "article discussing"!
"Article discussing" is a very interesting course .
I love "article discussing"
I love your "article discussing" ok!! It is a gerund all right.

But not in your sentence : An article // discussing education // appeared in the newspaper.
There's no need to have a "long discussion" about it! (long discussing is not so common)

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 11-06-2012 at 23:35:35 (D | E)
Hello!

Excuse me please. I know that " Hair leave clever head."
I have no problem to see participle in any sentence. Notice, I don't ask why the "reading" in 1) sentence is the participle and in 2)gerund. 1)I was reading this book. The reading girl was sitting near the window.2) Reading this book was interesting. Because it's clear from the context.

But as to "article discussing", we really can discuss any article and then put our article discussing into one of well being read newspapers..That is why I thought it's possible to think about "article discussing" as a subject of this sentence.
Sorry for meticulousness..

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Edited by lucile83 on 12-06-2012 08:09

Re: Which function/help from lucile83, posted on 12-06-2012 at 08:16:59 (D | E)
Hello,

I already said
article = subject of the verb appeared.

discussing is the verb 'was discussing'
article discussing = article which/that was discussing
'which/that was' is omitted

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 13-06-2012 at 00:29:31 (D | E)
Hello!
Last question on this topic.
Tell me please whether the participle phrases in these sentences ( and not only in these ones)--> "Deeply shocked,I left him. Studying the nature of light and color,Newton carried out many experiments with a prism." are adjectival(play the role of the adjective (attributive function))or adverbial(showing how the subject(I and Newton) did something)

Lucile, I agree with you on the part of this sentence, but I try to understand what sometimes prevent the participle to be the gerund except a sense. "There were written some interesting articles concerning this case in one of the newspapers. And in this connection, article discussing appeared in all TV programs." Could in this case "discussing" be the subject?

Re: Which function/help from lucile83, posted on 13-06-2012 at 07:28:37 (D | E)
Hello,

"There were written some interesting articles concerning this case in one of the newspapers. And in this connection, article discussing appeared in all TV programs."
Could in this case "discussing" be the subject?

Your question makes me think you didn't read the links that were given to you some time ago.
In one of those links they said that the difference between gerunds and participles is their function.

The article discussing the new system of school education appeared in all newspapers. ...here discussing is a participle
There were written some interesting articles concerning this case in one of the newspapers. And in this connection, article discussing appeared in all TV programs. ...here discussing is a gerund, and the subject of the verb 'appeared' is 'article discussing'

"Deeply shocked,I left him. Studying the nature of light and color,Newton carried out many experiments with a prism."
- deeply shocked is adjectival with an attributive function
- studying is a present participle with the function of a time clause (as/while he was studying)

Hurrying to study...here hurrying would be adverbial.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 13-06-2012 at 20:04:53 (D | E)
Hello!
Lucile Your question makes me think you didn't read the links that were given to you some time ago.
In one of those links they said that the difference between gerunds and participles is their function.

Please,don't think so. I know that they have different functions in a sentence. Maybe my next example could make you think other way...Tell me please whether the ing-form from the 1) sentence is participle only because this -ing form has the object (i take it in ().. The sentence 2) has -ing form in the first part without object of the -ing form.
1)The article discussing (the new system of school education) was very interesting.(participle)(I wonder,if we omit the article "the", will it be the gerund phrase? Article discussing (the new system of school education) was very interesting.))
2)Article discussing(-) was very interesting. (gerund)
And, at last, third sentence
Your discussing the new system of school education appeared in Times.(It's gerund phrase (the subject of the sentence),isn't it?)Please,try to understand me. I,learning Russian, used to use different ends for the participle and the verbal noun(gerunds).
=============
And one moment more,adverbial subordinate clauses don't describe any member of the sentence. But participle phrases do answering the question 'which'?Studying the nature of light and color,Newton carried out many experiments with a prism. Newton (which?, Studying the nature of light and color..
Or it could be just "man" OR "scientist"(not Newton). man studying the nature of light and color...
I don't understand how the participle phrase could be the adverbial. It answers the question "which?" describing something"

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 13-06-2012 at 20:21:38 (D | E)
Hello,
I must admit I get lost in your grammatical jungle but, to put it "simply":

1)The article discussing the new system of school education was very interesting.(participle)
"The" meaning "this" shows the newspaper article: This article was very interesting. So, discussing, present participle, brings information about the MAIN subject of the verb, the word article.

(I wonder,if we omit the article "the", will it be the gerund phrase? YES, because then, (article discussing) is an expression centered on itself, as if locked in a box, and the main subject is DISCUSSING,and discussing can't in my opinion take an object as it is a noun now, like debate or analysis, you would have to use a preposition like "about" :
This analysis about the new system of school education was very interesting
2)Article discussing was very interesting. (gerund) OK

And, at last, third sentence
(Your discussing /your analysis of) the new system of school education) appeared in Times. gerund ok! It can take an object "the new system of education" BECAUSE discussing is alone.

"Article discussing" is a gerund but this gerund applies to article and can't take another object.

SO, in sentence number one, there can't be a gerund.

Now, if you said:
"DISCUSSING articles about education is my passion", discussing would be a gerund.

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Edited by gerondif on 13-06-2012 20:25

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 13-06-2012 at 20:22:13 (D | E)
Standing on the edge of the stage, musician waved his hand to us. Which musician?-(Who was standing on the edge of the stage.)-Attributive function,not adverbial one.(while standing). I'm really confused.

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 13-06-2012 at 22:08:31 (D | E)
Hello,
(As he was ) (while he was)Standing on the edge of the stage, a musician waved his hand to us.
Where is the problem ?

Now:

Standing on the stage, he waved to us: standing is a present participle.

Standing on the edge of the stage is strictly forbidden: standing is a gerund.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 14-06-2012 at 00:13:36 (D | E)
Hello!(As he was ) (while he was)Standing on the edge of the stage, a musician waved his hand to us.
Where is the problem ?
The problem is in different understanding. I want to point that musician, who was standing on the edge of the stage. (on the stage there were several musicians, and only one of them waved his hand to us. Maybe one must put the participle phrase after "A musician" for that? The musician(who was) standing on the edge of the stage waved his hand to us. Maybe,if participle phrase stands before subject, it serves for forming adverbial(while..when..). If the participle phrase stands after the noun it plays attributive function. But in all cases, the participle itself, answering the question"which" plays attributive function.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 14-06-2012 at 00:42:03 (D | E)
Gerondif, you have written Your discussing the new system of school education appeared in Times. gerund ok! It can take an object "the new system of education" BECAUSE discussing is alone.
I thought that "article" like "your" plays attributive function for "discussing",not object for "discussing".
For example, when one says, "Newspaper article", one means "article in (of) newspaper". Why is it incorrect to think that"club discussing" is discussing in the club?(not discussing club). The same way "Tv (radio, article) discussing" is discussing on radio, on TV or in a newspaper article?

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 14-06-2012 at 16:13:45 (D | E)
Hello,
whenever I try to untie the situation, you come up with new knots.

What I mean is :

I like kick boxing. I can't add an object to boxing because of kick.
I like article discussing. Same thing.

I like boxing my sisters.I can add an object to boxing because it is alone, so to speak.
I dislike your boxing my sisters.

I like discussing new methods . Same thing.

As for your previous post, you can always say:
One of the musicians, standing on the edge of the stage, waved to us.

Now,
Standing on the side of the stage, one of the musicians waved to us.
would also make sense.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 14-06-2012 at 23:49:15 (D | E)
Hello, Gerondif! You have written:Standing on the side of the stage, one of the musicians waved to us.
would also make sense.
Tell me please if,in this case,we have the participle phrase describing one of the musicians? Or, again, it plays adverbial function?(while standing...)
If this participle phrase followed "one of the musicians" would it be the adjectival phrase with attributive function?
Thank you again.

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 15-06-2012 at 00:09:40 (D | E)
Hello,
Standing on the side of the stage, one of the musicians waved to us.
For me, standing applies to musician.

Otherwise, I would be more precise, less clumsy and say:

One of the musicians waved to us as we were standing on the side of the stage.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 15-06-2012 at 00:41:08 (D | E)
One of the musicians waved to us as we were standing on the side of the stage.
No! Your sentence says, that we were standing, not one of the musicians. (we were sitting)
I would like to just specify how to know when the participle, modifying the noun, plays adverbial function and when attributive one.
Dancing, he came up to us. (while dancing)-adverbial(how?)?
Looking usually well,yesterday,she seemed tired.- attributive (which one?)? Maybe, the participle phrase may have the adverbial and attributive functions? It depends only from the sense (meaning, a context) of the sentence?
I really have no questions about function of participle in the phrases like "the dancing boy" (one who dances), "the looking man" (that one who looks)-attributive.

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 15-06-2012 at 10:13:28 (D | E)
Hello ,

Dancing, he came up to us.
1) Dancing is related to he, but I don't think it can answer the question how, it is not a means of transportation, more a simultaneity.
He was dancing and he drew near to us.

This is what I used to learn in my younger days:

On hearing the news, he fainted (suddenness)
At hearing the news, he grew nervous (fright)
While washing up, he usually listens to the radio (insisting on simultaneity)
He came up to us, dancing (just two actions taking place at the same time but without insisting)
He walked into the room, smoking and holding his raincoat (same thing, just simultaneity)
He got his answers by threatening me (means, here the question how would apply)
He succeeded through working hard, through hard work (means)
He failed his exams through not studying enough.(dictionary on line)
He was arrested for speeding (cause)

2) Looking usually well,yesterday,she seemed tired.

I wouldn't say it that way because "looking usually well" has a present meaning and she can't both look well and tired at the same time. The sentence is twisted.
Although she usually looks well, she seemed tired yesterday.

It is true that an ing form put in apposition to the subject can lead to confusion.
Standing on the side of the stage, he waved to us.
For me, standing applies to he.

IF I wanted to mean something else, I just wouldn't use that pattern !

We were standing on the side of the stage when he waved to us. (then, I know who's who)
He waved to us as we were standing on the side of the stage.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 18-06-2012 at 20:43:56 (D | E)
Hello!
Gerondif, in your examples,you use prepositions before -ing forms (in these cases, -ing forms are the gerunds. The gerund with preposition before plays adverbial function,answering the question "how?". I have no questions for gerunds with prepositions.)
Standing on the side of the stage, he waved to us. I didn't think that "standing" refered to "us". I thought "standing" refered to "he". (the subject of the participle from the participle phrase before the main clause is the subject of the main clause,"he")
Tell me please how to learn whether the participle (or the participle phrase) plays the adverbial function or attributive one?
I mean how to learn what is omitted in the participle clause?(that was or while he was) The function of participle, attributive or adverbial one, will depend on it.
Musician that wasstanding on the side of the stage waved to us.OR
Musician,while he was standing on the side of the stage,waved to us.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 18-06-2012 at 20:59:38 (D | E)
Dancing, he came up to us.
1) Dancing is related to he, but I don't think it can answer the question how, it is not a means of transportation, more a simultaneity.
He was dancing and he drew near to us.
I meant in which way (hoW) he came to us. (he walked, he run, ...or danced) In this case one must use the preposition with gerund? By dancing,he came to us It is clear to me.
When one uses the preposition with gerund so to show the adverbial function is ok. But when one uses the participle (phrase)to do the same is not clear. I'm confused: what is omitted before -ing form? Is it the preposition or,maybe, that is (are), or "while"??

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 18-06-2012 at 22:34:32 (D | E)
So,how one must understand this phrase:The tall man standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us.
A tall man (that was)standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us. OR maybe,
The man (while he was) standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us.
OR it could be both cases depending on context.

Re: Which function/help from gerondif, posted on 18-06-2012 at 23:11:47 (D | E)
Hello,
"Tell me please how to learn whether the participle (or the participle phrase) plays the adverbial function or attributive one?" Honestly, who cares ? The idea is to build a sentence that makes sense.

Why do you keep writing "musician" without an article ???
The Musician that was standing on the side of the stage waved to us.OK, it is a restrictive relative clause.
a Musician,while he was standing on the side of the stage,waved to us. doesn't make sense, it wouldn't be insertd behind a comma.

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Dancing, he came up to us.
1) Dancing is related to he, but I don't think it can answer the question how, it is not a means of transportation, more a simultaneity. I maintain that

I meant in which way (hoW) he came to us.In that case, you should say: He came to us dancing. Put dancing at the end of the sentence and it will be understood as he answer to the question how.

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So,how one must understand this phrase:The tall man standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us.
A tall man (that was)standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us. ok,
The man, (while he was) standing not far from the blue car waved his hand to us.
No, it would be in an awkward or wrong position then. It wouldn't work after a comma.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 18-06-2012 at 23:52:57 (D | E)
Hello!
You mean that clause withwhile must be only at the beginning of the sentence?
Maybe, it is the difference between participle phrases with attributive function and relative(attributive)one?
Living not far from us, students often came to visit us.(while they were living)- adverbial function
Students living not far from us often came to visit us. -attributive function.

Re: Which function/help from a_limon, posted on 19-06-2012 at 00:02:32 (D | E)
But I think that participle itself couldn't play adverbial function. It plays adverbial function only while used with condunctions like "while" "as" or "when".Or maybe when they are omitted,but meant.
The nouns never play adverbial function without some preposition.(in the forest, at the river//)

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