Help/both- the two

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Help/both- the two
Message from university1984 posted on 23-09-2013 at 09:57:11 (D | E | F)
Hello,

Could you help me please?
There are few common points between both the two policies.
Why here can't we use "both" only
Would you please do me a favour?

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Edited by lucile83 on 23-09-2013 10:48

Re: Help/both- the two from jacques71, posted on 23-09-2013 at 10:30:35 (D | E)
Hello,

First of all: I'm French, so, no warranty at all.
In From my point of view, "both" would mean: "together, at the same time"
Ex: At that time, we were both in love" Or: My wife and I were both working hard.
Then "both" in your sentence, doesn't make sense.
I think the proper sentence should be:
"There are few common points between the two policies.
Glad if I could help!

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Edited by lucile83 on 23-09-2013 10:50

Re: Help/both- the two from simplicius, posted on 23-09-2013 at 11:26:39 (D | E)
Hi University,

The sentence "*there are few common points between both the two policies" is impossible. You can't have it both ways, it's either 'both' or "the two".
Moreover, here "both" doesn't work. You use "both" to assert something which holds for the two members of a pair. But here, you assert something which doesn't make sense for each of them individually. You couldn't say "there are few common points between this policy, and also that one".
So, in my opinion, the only possibility is "there are few common points between the two policies".
My two cents (but certainly not "both my cents")
simplicius

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Edited by lucile83 on 23-09-2013 13:30

Re: Help/both- the two from angel7, posted on 23-09-2013 at 12:22:53 (D | E)
Hello,
both and the two cannot be used in the same sentence. Both is used when two subjects or complements are alike and the two when they are different.
Hope it helps

Re: Help/both- the two from anijo, posted on 23-09-2013 at 13:05:37 (D | E)
Hello,

"There are few common points between both policies."
That sounds fine to me.
Here's an example of this usage:
Link

"There are several common points between both systems"
Here's another example:
Link

"There are a lot of common points between both the agricultural protests of 2008 and the Argentinazo of 2001.."

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Edited by lucile83 on 23-09-2013 13:32

Re: Help/both- the two from simplicius, posted on 23-09-2013 at 14:10:25 (D | E)
Hello,

It is true that "between both" is used; but "between the two" is more frequent and, I think, more correct.
For instance googling "between both of us" gives 1,9 M results, whereas "between the two of us" gives 31,2 M results.
Misuse of "both" is frequent enough for Fowler's Modern English Usage to have an entry about it; however Fowler doesn't mention that situation in particular, so I have no 'smoking-gun evidence' so far. I guess we have to wait for the experts' report, which may take several weeks...
Meanwhile, I understand that a statement including "both X and Y" is a statement which is true for X and for Y alike; you couldn't say "between X and between Y alike".
Still, not being a native speaker, I'm quite eager to hear more from members of that group!
Cheers
simplicius

Re: Help/both- the two from anijo, posted on 23-09-2013 at 15:19:17 (D | E)
Hello simplicius,

You're right. Here's an example from the Google Ngram Viewer:
Link

I don't just learn French here, the French teach me how to speak my own language.

Re: Help/both- the two from lucile83, posted on 23-09-2013 at 15:23:21 (D | E)
Hello,

Here is a test of mine on the subject
Link

He has read both books.
He has read the two books. ('both' may be replaced by 'the two')

The two countries are different. (here you insist on the difference)
The two houses are different.
When you use both you speak of a whole, made of two books.
When you use the two you speak of two distinct things.
Hope this helps.

Re: Help/both- the two from simplicius, posted on 23-09-2013 at 16:03:54 (D | E)
Hello anijo,

Once in a while I too learn something about my own language here. Of course I learn a lot about other languages too!
I didn't know about the ngram viewer tool, it looks fantastic. Thanks for introducing me to that resource.

Re: Help/both- the two from anijo, posted on 23-09-2013 at 17:33:09 (D | E)
Thank you Lucile

Hello Simplicius,
You're welcome

I don't feel too silly, though, because here are some more examples from texts discussing language and grammar.
INTRODUCTION TO FUNCTIONAL GRAMMAR
Link

..it is usually difficult to establish what the real relationship between both elements is.
The relation between both elements (the Subject and the Object) is the same in every example
In an example like the [proportional representation] campaign, the semantic relation between both noun phrases is ambiguous
Link

..which says that it is possible to establish general principles which unite the major contrasts between both languages.
To get a descriptive and lucid image of the contrasts between the two languages.

Re: Help/both- the two from gerondif, posted on 23-09-2013 at 18:08:17 (D | E)
Hello,
I have just recovered from trying to read the previous link, introduction to functional grammar.

To say it simply, I would side with Lucile or Simplicius.
Both and the two can be used when the two have similarities or are considered as a whole.
There are a lot of similarities between both //the two policies.
I like the two of them = I like them both = I like both of them = I like both

But if you split them apart or make a difference between them:

There are very few common points between the two policies.
Neither of (none of) the two policies have anything in common (you couldn't use both here)

I would have said spontaneously:
There are very few common points between either of the two policies.
(I'll cross it out if it is really wrong, I thought very few was negative and so either would fit! Or I mistook it with: There are very few common points between any of the two policies)

You couldn't say: "I have to choose between both" but:
I have to choose one of the two, I have to choose ~~between~~(yes, you are right Lucile) one of the two, I have to choose between the two..

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Edited by gerondif on 23-09-2013 18:28

Re: Help/both- the two from lucile83, posted on 23-09-2013 at 18:23:45 (D | E)
Hello gerondif

There are very few common points between either of the two policies.
I have to choose one of the two, I have to choose between one of the two.
Are you sure you can choose between either of two things, or between one of two things?
You can choose between two things however.
What do you think?

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Edited by lucile83 on 23-09-2013 21:14
Well, ok gerondif...I'll have a quiet night then

Re: Help/both- the two from notrepere, posted on 23-09-2013 at 18:32:12 (D | E)
Hello

While I think both are understandable, to me "between" implies that there is a choice between two separate things (=the two). The word "both" treats the two things as a group instead of individually, so "between" seems out of place.

Re: Help/both- the two from simplicius, posted on 23-09-2013 at 18:51:40 (D | E)
anijo, you should certainly not feel silly, since many people use "between both", and you examples prove that even authors of grammars use "between the two" and "between both" indiscriminately.

I have just searched a pdf version of my bible, Quirk's "A Grammar of Contemporary English", and much to my relief, in all of its 1 100 or so pages, there are 30 occurrences of "between the two", and none of "between both".
Best regards
simplicius

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Edited by simplicius on 23-09-2013 18:54

Re: Help/both- the two from anijo, posted on 23-09-2013 at 19:20:23 (D | E)
Hello,

I just realized that I was mentally adding an 'a' in that sentence, like this:
There are a few common points between both policies."
"There are few common points between both policies" sounds awkward. I'd just ditch this construction and say, "The two policies don't really compare"

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Edited by anijo on 23-09-2013 19:23

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